Duolingo is a gambling company masquerading as a learning resource. (Buy gems! Buy lingots! Increase your chance of loot drops!) Their entire business model is preying on addictive dark patterns. (Loot drop animations - so much colour and motion - so exciting! Don't let that streak lapse - buy a streak freeze now! Oh no, the owl is sad you haven't watched enough ads! You don't want to make the owl sad, do you? Duolingo for Schools available now!)
It's been apparent for a long, long time that pedagogical considerations have no sway in the direction of Duolingo. I'm not surprised to hear that they're planning to outsource customer support to AI. If anything, I'm amazed they haven't outsourced all their language courses to AI yet. Those are merely the colourful backdrop to the slot machine business that they're actually in. (Come to think of it, how do we know they haven't?)
Kudos to the mods. I have no idea why a bunch of language enthusiasts should be expected to work as unpaid support staff for a ghoulish casino app.
I’ve been regularly using Duolingo to learn Portuguese for the past almost year (according to my streak). All the “dark patterns” you describe have helped me stay on track. I actually appreciate the addictive nature of the app pushing me to use it every day since it’s helped me learn a lot of words so I can better communicate with a friend in Brazil. I haven’t paid a dime for any of it (but I’ve watched a lifetime of ads)
Fixing customer support seems like something they should do but I sincerely hope they don’t change anything else you complained about. Spanish or vanish, meu amigo
I spent a year learning a language on Duolingo, and I both agree and disagree:
1. Yes, the fact that Duolingo uses techniques to get you hooked on the app isn't some dark secret. On the contrary, Duolingo is very open about it. This is their marketing strategy—they want people to believe that Duolingo will help them get addicted (or, more positively phrased, "form a habit") to something useful and worthwhile, rather than being addicted to scrolling through social media.
2. Unfortunately, Duolingo seems to focus only on the "addiction" part, neglecting the "learning" aspect. To put it bluntly, Duolingo is not very effective at actually enabling you to use (communicate in, understand) the language.
It was only after I switched from Duolingo to truly immersing myself in content in the language that I started to gain the skills that (pretty soon) allowed me to use the language in real life.
I agree Duolingo is not a substitute for more immersive learning or even just taking classes. It's especially not very ideal for the spoken parts of a language since it can't do the best job at judging your pronunciation and you're not going to spend a lot of time in the app having coherent conversations in another language. From my experience so far, it's good at teaching you the basics of a language so you can be just good enough at sounding like an idiot in front of your Brazilian friend.
That said, I have heard some people pairing it with HelloTalk to get that immersion piece. It's an app that lets you talk with others in the language you're trying to learn, and vice versa they too are trying to learn your language
Use it with PiHole, and all you get is the "Get DuoLingo Pro" (or whatever it's called) video. I always close the app (open the "task switcher" on the phone and swipe up to end) and relaunch it instead of watching the ads.
You paid a great opportunity cost. You could have been using something good for a year, rather than something designed to prey on your mind.
Every time you made a mistake, you lost a heart. Every time you lost your hearts, you were forced to watch an ad. That's great for Duolingo. You, on the other hand, spent a year being punished for making mistakes, which is the worst pathway one can possibly set up in a language learners' mind. I'm sure you can click on the words for 'Is the elephant under the chair?' very competently in the app now, but I'd be curious to see whether you've been Pavlovian-conditioned to fear making mistakes, and the impact that may have on your productive capacity in spontaneous language interaction contexts.
But hey, your brain is fungible, and VCs gotta get paid. That $14 billion valuation comes from somewhere.
Did you not know about the free hearts you get if you watch more ads?
More seriously, I think you’re taking this way too seriously. I’m happy I learned some words and phrases in Portuguese. I can recognize half of the things I see in the wild in Portuguese. That’s good enough for me.
I don’t have PTSD from an angry owl every time I try to learn a new word, but thank you for your concern
Language requires repetition and prolonged attention to learn. Anki is good for sure but even with push notifications is not pushy enough to keep most people coming back to it on a consistent basis. Miss a day of Anki and now you're doubled up on cards to review next time which can disincentivize people from ever coming back.
This is where Duolingo succeeds and why it's valued so highly. Twisting dark patterns to the benefit of the user for a process that requires prolonged retention is the perfect fit. The techniques it uses are derived from research on how best to keep someone's attention. Saying they add no value to language learning and that people should pick up a textbook is essentially saying that you trust people to be self-motivated enough to stick to something like that for potentially years. That is a losing bet. I'd wager the vast majority of people would never be able to do it in their entire lives.
That's the point, isn't it? It takes these dark patterns that predatory game devs/actual gambling apps have been researching and minmaxing for years and points them at something useful and productive instead (language learning). The result is a language learning app with very effective user retention and repetition, which is especially useful for a subject that requires lots of repetitive practice.
As far as I can tell there isn't any actual gambling and the microtransactions/lootboxes appear to be simulated and don't depend on actual money. This overall doesn't seem like a bad system to me. I think their overt dark patterns are intentional and are tripping your "this is malicious" sense when in fact I would give them kudos for using them in a way that is beneficial to people.
I guess it's been over a year since the reddit blackouts, we were due for more ludicrous drama and laughably inflated moderator egos. I wouldn't be surprised to see similar posts in other subreddits, at least until Reddit swoops in at someone's behest and threatens to take their toys away.
Duolingo only has themselves to blame though, I'm struggling to name another non-social media app who has cultivated a fanbase with such a weird parasocial relationship with it.
Reddit pitched companies that it was a place to meet the customer where they’re at. Fidelity customer support sits in /r/fidelityinvestments, for example, and this is mentioned both on their website and in the mobile apps.
That's all well and good but this doesn't seem equivalent to this Duolingo subreddit where mods and other users were providing support, and I am not sure why they spent so much time acting as unpaid customer support, as they mentioned. It seems like mods self-flagellate on reddit and eventually burn out.
I’ve answered questions on the internet for decades. I enjoy helping people, especially when it’s about a hobby we share.
I would feel the same way if I came to realize that my helpful nature was being abused by a bad acting corporation, and I would refuse to give any more help until I felt it was more equitable.
I’m not sure why Duolingo didn’t already have control over their subreddit. This is a bad look for them, and I just signed up for a family plan. Will I get support?
Companies like like Google love "Reddit Requests" and pushing support to social media because it lets them skirt fixing their non-existent yet legally mandated customer support, helps them catch and avoid PR threads (before problems go "viral"), they come off looking like benevolent angels for providing selective public attention to solve one person's issue while not having to address systemic problems, and, of course, free labor.
After the Pixel launch, Google had this poor guy acting like a customer experience manager for the sub, escalating requests to Pixel team staff, acting as a direct liaison between Support and Engineering, and talking to angry Redditors all day, totally unpaid.
When I point blank asked him whether and how this multi-trillion dollar company was compensating him for his very real labor, he had a "but they're my friends" moment before finally realizing they were taking advantage of him. They got a good year out of him, at least. I suggested he sue.
A decade on, Reddit are scumbags for not addressing this at the business level, and any company using Reddit Requests is cheating customers out of an official, functional Customer Support experience.
What customer support is legally required? Just curious since I've had better experience with Google/etc related support than I have with things like most consumer electronics or appliance manufacturers.
Check your state's consumer rights laws. While there's a general requirement for Customer Support, there aren't universal tests or criteria for effectiveness. There are also different requirements for different industries.
Bottom line is that management just doesn't want to hear anything negative, ever. They're not going to read it and if their lackeys read it the lackeys know better than to tell them about it and risk their own livelihoods. Better for the shareholders if we just pretend everything is great all the time no matter what.
Duolingo is a gambling company masquerading as a learning resource. (Buy gems! Buy lingots! Increase your chance of loot drops!) Their entire business model is preying on addictive dark patterns. (Loot drop animations - so much colour and motion - so exciting! Don't let that streak lapse - buy a streak freeze now! Oh no, the owl is sad you haven't watched enough ads! You don't want to make the owl sad, do you? Duolingo for Schools available now!)
It's been apparent for a long, long time that pedagogical considerations have no sway in the direction of Duolingo. I'm not surprised to hear that they're planning to outsource customer support to AI. If anything, I'm amazed they haven't outsourced all their language courses to AI yet. Those are merely the colourful backdrop to the slot machine business that they're actually in. (Come to think of it, how do we know they haven't?)
Kudos to the mods. I have no idea why a bunch of language enthusiasts should be expected to work as unpaid support staff for a ghoulish casino app.
I’ve been regularly using Duolingo to learn Portuguese for the past almost year (according to my streak). All the “dark patterns” you describe have helped me stay on track. I actually appreciate the addictive nature of the app pushing me to use it every day since it’s helped me learn a lot of words so I can better communicate with a friend in Brazil. I haven’t paid a dime for any of it (but I’ve watched a lifetime of ads)
Fixing customer support seems like something they should do but I sincerely hope they don’t change anything else you complained about. Spanish or vanish, meu amigo
I spent a year learning a language on Duolingo, and I both agree and disagree:
1. Yes, the fact that Duolingo uses techniques to get you hooked on the app isn't some dark secret. On the contrary, Duolingo is very open about it. This is their marketing strategy—they want people to believe that Duolingo will help them get addicted (or, more positively phrased, "form a habit") to something useful and worthwhile, rather than being addicted to scrolling through social media.
2. Unfortunately, Duolingo seems to focus only on the "addiction" part, neglecting the "learning" aspect. To put it bluntly, Duolingo is not very effective at actually enabling you to use (communicate in, understand) the language.
It was only after I switched from Duolingo to truly immersing myself in content in the language that I started to gain the skills that (pretty soon) allowed me to use the language in real life.
I agree Duolingo is not a substitute for more immersive learning or even just taking classes. It's especially not very ideal for the spoken parts of a language since it can't do the best job at judging your pronunciation and you're not going to spend a lot of time in the app having coherent conversations in another language. From my experience so far, it's good at teaching you the basics of a language so you can be just good enough at sounding like an idiot in front of your Brazilian friend.
That said, I have heard some people pairing it with HelloTalk to get that immersion piece. It's an app that lets you talk with others in the language you're trying to learn, and vice versa they too are trying to learn your language
Use it with PiHole, and all you get is the "Get DuoLingo Pro" (or whatever it's called) video. I always close the app (open the "task switcher" on the phone and swipe up to end) and relaunch it instead of watching the ads.
You paid a great opportunity cost. You could have been using something good for a year, rather than something designed to prey on your mind.
Every time you made a mistake, you lost a heart. Every time you lost your hearts, you were forced to watch an ad. That's great for Duolingo. You, on the other hand, spent a year being punished for making mistakes, which is the worst pathway one can possibly set up in a language learners' mind. I'm sure you can click on the words for 'Is the elephant under the chair?' very competently in the app now, but I'd be curious to see whether you've been Pavlovian-conditioned to fear making mistakes, and the impact that may have on your productive capacity in spontaneous language interaction contexts.
But hey, your brain is fungible, and VCs gotta get paid. That $14 billion valuation comes from somewhere.
Did you not know about the free hearts you get if you watch more ads?
More seriously, I think you’re taking this way too seriously. I’m happy I learned some words and phrases in Portuguese. I can recognize half of the things I see in the wild in Portuguese. That’s good enough for me.
I don’t have PTSD from an angry owl every time I try to learn a new word, but thank you for your concern
[flagged]
> You’re bragging
Oh?
> I’m fluent in Portuguese
I see what you did there :)
> not worth even 1/2 a heart
Half a heart is a lot to me! I get all itchy when I don’t have any
Provavelmente é bom você se re-educar através do seu próprio comentário: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42667263
> You could have been using something good for a year, rather than something designed to prey on your mind.
Do you know of any good, free, alternatives?
Anki for flashcards, downloading any good textbook online honestly. It will be way effective way to spend your time.
Language requires repetition and prolonged attention to learn. Anki is good for sure but even with push notifications is not pushy enough to keep most people coming back to it on a consistent basis. Miss a day of Anki and now you're doubled up on cards to review next time which can disincentivize people from ever coming back.
This is where Duolingo succeeds and why it's valued so highly. Twisting dark patterns to the benefit of the user for a process that requires prolonged retention is the perfect fit. The techniques it uses are derived from research on how best to keep someone's attention. Saying they add no value to language learning and that people should pick up a textbook is essentially saying that you trust people to be self-motivated enough to stick to something like that for potentially years. That is a losing bet. I'd wager the vast majority of people would never be able to do it in their entire lives.
Anki doesn't give me push notifications on my phone to study every day. It doesn't berate me for missing a day.
It works for people who can stick to a schedule without pushing.
> Anki doesn't give me push notifications on my phone to study every day.
I'm pretty sure it does?
Main menu > Settings > Notifications
(It's by pending cards rather than per day, but I don't consider that a meaningful distinction)
That's the point, isn't it? It takes these dark patterns that predatory game devs/actual gambling apps have been researching and minmaxing for years and points them at something useful and productive instead (language learning). The result is a language learning app with very effective user retention and repetition, which is especially useful for a subject that requires lots of repetitive practice.
As far as I can tell there isn't any actual gambling and the microtransactions/lootboxes appear to be simulated and don't depend on actual money. This overall doesn't seem like a bad system to me. I think their overt dark patterns are intentional and are tripping your "this is malicious" sense when in fact I would give them kudos for using them in a way that is beneficial to people.
I guess it's been over a year since the reddit blackouts, we were due for more ludicrous drama and laughably inflated moderator egos. I wouldn't be surprised to see similar posts in other subreddits, at least until Reddit swoops in at someone's behest and threatens to take their toys away.
Duolingo only has themselves to blame though, I'm struggling to name another non-social media app who has cultivated a fanbase with such a weird parasocial relationship with it.
I'm not sure why a subreddit was acting as a company's customer support in the first place.
Reddit pitched companies that it was a place to meet the customer where they’re at. Fidelity customer support sits in /r/fidelityinvestments, for example, and this is mentioned both on their website and in the mobile apps.
That's all well and good but this doesn't seem equivalent to this Duolingo subreddit where mods and other users were providing support, and I am not sure why they spent so much time acting as unpaid customer support, as they mentioned. It seems like mods self-flagellate on reddit and eventually burn out.
I’ve answered questions on the internet for decades. I enjoy helping people, especially when it’s about a hobby we share.
I would feel the same way if I came to realize that my helpful nature was being abused by a bad acting corporation, and I would refuse to give any more help until I felt it was more equitable.
I’m not sure why Duolingo didn’t already have control over their subreddit. This is a bad look for them, and I just signed up for a family plan. Will I get support?
Companies like like Google love "Reddit Requests" and pushing support to social media because it lets them skirt fixing their non-existent yet legally mandated customer support, helps them catch and avoid PR threads (before problems go "viral"), they come off looking like benevolent angels for providing selective public attention to solve one person's issue while not having to address systemic problems, and, of course, free labor.
After the Pixel launch, Google had this poor guy acting like a customer experience manager for the sub, escalating requests to Pixel team staff, acting as a direct liaison between Support and Engineering, and talking to angry Redditors all day, totally unpaid.
When I point blank asked him whether and how this multi-trillion dollar company was compensating him for his very real labor, he had a "but they're my friends" moment before finally realizing they were taking advantage of him. They got a good year out of him, at least. I suggested he sue.
A decade on, Reddit are scumbags for not addressing this at the business level, and any company using Reddit Requests is cheating customers out of an official, functional Customer Support experience.
What customer support is legally required? Just curious since I've had better experience with Google/etc related support than I have with things like most consumer electronics or appliance manufacturers.
Check your state's consumer rights laws. While there's a general requirement for Customer Support, there aren't universal tests or criteria for effectiveness. There are also different requirements for different industries.
I do not understand why corporations don't at least read subreddits. HR departments could learn a lot from the "career" subreddits.
Bottom line is that management just doesn't want to hear anything negative, ever. They're not going to read it and if their lackeys read it the lackeys know better than to tell them about it and risk their own livelihoods. Better for the shareholders if we just pretend everything is great all the time no matter what.